Page 1 of More electrical help needed!!

Hi guys....back again.....well, the missis bought some new ceiling light fittings and i thought "here we go again" but this time it will be easy!

Oh dear ! Well i undid the fitting that was unconnected waiting to see "Red wire, black wire and green/yellow wire!"

Well they were all there.......but not one of em.........3 lots of each ! YES it looked like i could fit 3 lamps at once!!!.....................So i thought "No need for all that, ill just fit one of em in and put some tape around the other two fittings and leave them alone as im not trying to fit 3 ceiling lamps!."

(Cue : all electricians now falling over laughing)

Well, there was good news and bad news. When i turned the electricity back on

"HEY PRESTO"!! The light came on, which was strange cos im sure it was off when i started? Still, thats what i wanted so the missis would be over the moon!

Bad news. When i came to turn the light off at the switch.......IT WONT SWITCH OFF !!

What have i done guys? Can i sort it out? There is a plastic thing that has come with the fitting that has 8 screws in and looks like it could hold 8 wires.......now im sure this has something to do with it but i aint a clue how?

Help me guys, i know im an idiot, but at least i turn off the electricity so im a safe idiot !

Richie :/

This item was edited on Thursday, 15th February 2007, 12:12

Perhaps u connected the fixture to a different set of wires from those controlled by the light switch?

T¦M3CH4S3R

"I am worst at what I do the best, for this gift I feel blessed. I found it hard... it was hard to find. Oh well, Whatever! NEVERMIND"

The light wasnt in use and had a really old screwed in fitting (the wiring is newish tho) that wasnt connected. I have checked the other ceiling fitting and that is the same but connected up and working. That works fine with all wires connected but its a completely different kind of fitting and looks quite old.

P S. I have checked all the light fittings in the house and they ALL seem to be connected by 3 wires so obviously theres someway of putting all these wires into the eight holed plastic thingy.....but in what order ? !!

This item was edited on Thursday, 15th February 2007, 12:26

Just found a picture and it seems i have a LOOP IN SYSTEM. Its still puzzling tho as i dont know which wires are the switch cable (x1) and the circuit cables (x2) ......i think this is what i need to determine !

i`m assuming u have taken all the wires out of the rose right? if so, follow the procedure below.... if you still have the rose on the ceiling let me know and i will guide u through that as well...

:/ what u have in ur ceiling is this... one pair permanently live, one pair which goes down to the light switch and one pair that loops off to the next ceiling rose... all ceiling roses come with the required number of connection points to enable all those wires to be accomodated - what u have done is connected ur ceiling light to the pair thats permanently fed.... no amount of light switch flicking will turn it off....

As you appear to have isolated them all, you will now need to find the live pair, and the switch pair and the loop pair. u will need a mains tester/continuity tester to find the live pair and the continuity tester to "ring out" the switch pair - the remaining pair will be the loop to the next ceiling rose in the loop, (chances are that some, if not all of the other lights on that floor will have stopped working as well as they have no "feed", as u disconnected it..)

1. once you have found the live pair with the mains tester TURN OFF the mains supply or pull the fuse etc to the lighting circuit your working on... mark the red wire of the live pair with some red tape.... this will tell u that that particular wire is live all the time when the power is back on... the other wire of that pair (black) is the neutral wire - put these to one side..

2. turn OFF the light switch and ring out one of the remaining pairs with the continuity tester by putting the probes of the tester on a pair of red and blacks...... then turn on the light switch, if the tester buzzes, confirm it is the right pair by turning off the switch and then back on again a few times, if you get nothing, try the other pair... once you have established the "switch" pair, mark the the wires insulation with an "SW" for switch and put to one side... the remaining pair will be the loop pair going off to the next ceiling rose...

3. For the next step you will need some appropriate connectors or crimps. Take the "live" pair and the "loop" pair you established earlier and connect them together, red to red and black to black

4. Now take the "switch" pair and connect its BLACK wire to the two red wires in the connector... insulate and tuck out of the way - the odd "red" wire u have left over will bring the "live" back from the switch and is what u will use to go to the light fitting itself.... connect the other wire from the light fitting to the two neutral black wires.

5. connect all the earth wires together and attach any earth wire that may be coming from the fitting to them as well...

6. double check ur wiring and connectors and insulate with electrical tape, attach the fitting to the ceiling making sure the excess wiring is out of harms way then make sure the light switch is turned off and turn back on the mains or insert fuse or flick trip swith back on, whatever it is u have..... try the light switch and bingo you should be all working again...

This item was edited on Thursday, 15th February 2007, 21:48

The above is correct but you may find the switched pair has 2 red wires instead of a red and black, makes it easier to identify the switch. If it doesn`t have 2 reds then you should put some red sleeving (or tape) over the black to indicate that it is live.

Also you can skip step 1, as in, just find the switch pair, it`s the only one that needs a different connection to the other wires.

One thing that can be confusing is the light fitting will use the new colour codes, so the live coming back from the switch (red) will connect to the brown of the light fitting and all the black wires will connect to the blue wire of the light fitting.

And lastly, insulation tape is no longer allowed to be used, there should be sufficient connections within the light fitting, if you do need to use connector block + tape then you must have got confused and fitted the light back in 2003 ;)

Edit :

Just realised that you probably do not have a test meter as would already have tried that, you can use a magic screw driver instead B & Q sell them, much cheaper than a multi meter.

Make sure the power is turned OFF, select one pair of wires, put your finger on the end of the screwdriver, hold the tip of the screwdriver on the red wire and put a finger from your other hand on the black wire, if the little bulb inside the screwdriver lights up then you have got a circuit, now holding that position ask the other half to turn the light switch on and off, if the little bulb goes on and off with the switch then you have found the switch pair. If not try the next pair of wires.

All the best

Gerald.

This item was edited on Friday, 16th February 2007, 11:41

Ramshackle and Superted, you guys are true gentleman ! Not only did i manage that, i have now fitted a dimmer switch too ! Bread and butter to you guys, i know but dont worry, your jobs are safe........ for now !!

To be honest, i actually enjoyed doing all this (albeit with your help!) and as a final question. how long does it take to train to be an electrician (and how much does it cost?)? Reason i ask is i may consider it, as although its difficult/technical, i find it enjoyable! (but i bet not all jobs are like this!!!)

Once again, thankyou very much guys.

Richie :O)

This item was edited on Friday, 16th February 2007, 19:07

It depends on how far you want to go, commercial etc.

I did 16th edition a few years ago, it was a 6 month course at Cardiff Uni, it was only a top up course as already had an electronics background. The latest course is Part P, I havn`t done that as doesn`t cover my work, Electrical Testing, my dad has done it and says it makes the 16th Edition seem like a childs spelling test :¦

With all the new regulations you have to be at least 16th edition qualified even to work on your own home so am sure there won`t be any basic courses anymore, it sounds stupid but you should see some of the things I come accross on a daily basis done by Handy Andy wannabees.

I had to visit a shop in London a few years ago because a little girl had been killed by an ice cream freezer, long story short the shop owner had run over the cable cleaning behind the freezer, replaced it, as he should, used wrong cable, didn`t realise he was doing anything wrong, freezer was running all day in the summer and decided to go bang just as the girl was fishing out her favourite lolly :( .

All the best

Gerald.